Robert Anton Wilson & Steven ‘fly’ Pratt: A Serial Killer In The Whitehouse


A teaser from my full audio interview with Dr Robert Anton Wilson, recorded at his humble home in Capitola/Live Oak/Santa Cruz, California (looking out over the Monterey Bay).
This recording was rediscovered in a jumble-bunch of mini discs–if you can remember that flash-in-the-pan format–only last week. I made my first round of rough chapter edits, and here is part 6 out of 32.
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steve fly agaric 23

I FIRST MET DR. WILSON… (from September 2006)

Introduction 2010:

Hi, I met BOB a number of times between 2000 and 2005 in the USA, and regret not being allowed back into the U.S due to VISA issues, to see him again before he passed on. While he was still with us I already started a piece of writing that started to describe his influence upon me and how that amplified since traveling to America to meet him and having a most excellent adventure.

The following is what I wrote in mid 2006 while living with my parents at their home near Stourbridge in the West Midlands of England. I thought it was about time I put this up, as its just sitting on my hard-drive gathering moss, enjoy, love, steve.

P.S I now have the audio recording I made from the Prophets conference I can share here. Universe Contains a maybe monday by rawmemorial

I first met Dr. Wilson on the 17th December 2000 A.D at the Prophets Conference in Palm springs, California, only 4 days after Al Gore said “”This is America, and we put country before party.”  conceding  to Bozo the clown in what might have been the most crooked election in U.S history, although the 2004 election may prove to even topple that.  RAW opened his presentation titled “The Universe contains a maybe” with the line “George W. Bush is the president of the United States…maybe?” and continued to keep the audience smiling and in high spirits all throughout his epic, encyclopedic sit-down comedy cornucopia. 

Six years on, and RAW seems as optimistic and cheerful as he ever was, perpetually glossing the world and its “other” with practical and scientific solutions, models, metaphors for our human condition. His alchemical unity of science and mysticism through the lenses of social psychology, humor and poetry illuminates, to me in (2006), the observation that language and the “other” places beyond language will provide us, the stewards of spaceship-earth, with new portals of discovery that can help nurture communication between different people’s, nation’s and species. His humble wisdom and teachings are an immortal kind of “Timespace capsule” as any bookshop or internet search will indicate his increasing presence throught the mediasphere, to not speak of his rather under acknowledged shadow as countercultural legend and outer head of the inter-galactic super Illuminati.

I would like to extend my gratitude to Dr. Robert Anton Wilson for his time and patience towards his merry tribes of interacting readers and processing patients everywhere. I will also take this opportunity to thank my family, friends and fellow poets for their critical support and optimistic humour that helped sustain me, as an independent artist within various challenging environments.
I first met Dr. Robert Anton Wislon in Palm Springs California at the Prophets conference where i was fortunate to have been asked to provide assistance to Bob throughout the conference, we enjoyed dinner together and had a Manhattan or two together with Paul Krassner and his wife.

Later in different company we shared a fragrant bit of Marijuana – a recent cannabis-cup winning weed called Williams Wonder which transformed Bob into the image of Yoda before my eyes, wise, old and green. The wonderful weed was provided courtesy of Richard Metzger. 

Earlier that day i had offered Bob some Liberty Cap mushrooms i had carried some 6000 miles with me in my pants, Lovingly picked from the Wychbury hills in the West Midlands of England close to where i grew up, alas Bob turned down my offer but seemed to enjoy my wry smile and laughed with surprise when i produced the mushrooms.

AHA! At the Prophets Conference 2000 A.D in Palm Springs i had gave Bob a copy of a book called the Stargate Conspiracy by Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince and he was reading it while at the conference and even talked a little of his initial impressions of the book. I gave this book to him because he was mentioned in the book and i felt an author should at the very least have a copy of any book they are mentioned in. 

Two and half years later i gave another text to Bob at his home in Santa Cruz, the book was “The Cosmic Serpent” by Jeremy Narby that i had with me and wanted to leave with Bob when i discovered he had not read it plus the fact that it had recently come up in an e-mail Bob received. Another 2 years later – September 2004, myself and over 50 other critters were exchanging blooks, essays, poetry, art and music with Bob during various courses he led at the new internet based Maybelogic Academy. 

In San Francisco i saw Bob on four occasions, two at the learning annex San Francisco and one of these events i was an assistant in video taping the event for Soundphotosynthesis archive. I also worked upon some editing of this presentation afterwards but am unsure if the recording is finished and available at Soundphotosynthesis. Another in S.F event was called Pantheon conference 2001, held at the Renaissance hotel – i sent a Manhatten to his table as i knew what his favorite drink was.

On september 10th 2002 i travelled to Bob’s home in Capitola and spent three or four hours that felt like several days in fascinating conversation with him.  A partial textual transcription of the recording from this afternoon has been published in the online magazine (Maybelogic Quarterly Vernal Equinox 2006) co-created by members of the maybelogic academy. Considering that i turned up to Bob’s house with no credentials, without flashing an I.D card, or waving a press pass or PHD.

I introduced myself as Fly Agaric on BOB’s intercom and he simply asked me if i wanted to come up. He treated me with upmost respect and trusted me in his own personal home space, he allowed me to set up some recording equipment and fiddle with his electric plugs, drink cans of Guinness and smoke weed on his balcony. I mean… What a Giza! And to then continue to entertain me with his razor wit and encyclopedic trademark intelligence, me, a nobody from England, a young cosmic Schmuck with a passion to know more about what the hell is REALLY going on, and a lad who had found the living oracle and was now engaging with him, laughing a lot, feeling comfortable and having fun.

You might ask yourself how many other 72 year old celebrity writers, comedians and philosophers would tolerate such things, i mean imagine tracking down Dan Brown to his house, getting buzzed in and then only 20 minutes later drinking Guinness, smoking pot, eating Marijuana brownies and having a right good chin wag? More reasons to read Robert Anton Wilson, i discovered that day another secret of the Illuminati – be humble. 

The next time i met Bob was at the launch of his first and only biographical Movie premiere in Santa Cruz on the auspicious date 23 July 2003 (30 full years after his first telepathic experiences with doggies from the double star system Sirius.) On this occasion i was also celebrating my own contributions to this movie project and the very generous title given to me by Deepleaf productions of “Associate Producer”. I felt ecstatic! After the show i saw Bob briefly while getting into a jaguar and riding off into the Santa Cruz night like the final scene from the Usual suspects. This was the last time i saw Bob in the flesh, he had the physical attributes of a Chan Buddhist monk, an Irish Bard and a witch. He also looked to me like Xavier from the X-men in the year 2023 but with wild Einstein-white hair. Always well dressed in a dinner jacket and a ruffled enbroidered silk shirt, his Celtic spiral ring  beaming off his large blue eyes, his speech slightly slurred due to a recent pair of teeth i believe, he must have wore out his last pair on that senator from Washington D.C? Yeah, i suppose Bob was like a grandad figure to me because of his age and appearance but also his influence upon this particular journey (all the way from New orleans) and my current life in America to some extent, having originally came to America to hear his presentation “The Universe contains a maybe” at the Santa fe Prophets conference, but he became Ill and could not make it.

This incident led to me being asked to help Bob at the next conference in Palm Springs – Dec 2000 A.D, and so it goes. My own journey into Chapel perilous had begun. Fortunately i was among kind family in the Bay area and got treated with much love and respect by the inhabitants, i was given food, lodging, access to the internet, gigs and the kind of trust and respect you might expect from close neighbors of fifteen years.

The Utopia i had only imagined was real, San Francisco, Oakland, California, with all the creative forces and cultural waltzing, i was living in a novel, and my friends reflected for me the kind of hero’s and positive forces within classic stories and myths, tales – lending a helpful hand, asking you to come to the party, the show, the art opening. I began to feel and tune in the vibe, you know the VIBE, it seemed everybody was from somewhere else on the map, all around the world. I could feel the same kind of optimism and technological embrace and multicultural celebrations that i often get from reading RAW in some sense, although my gloss is skewed or maybe not skewed in a RAW fashion because i read him so damn much.

Steven James Pratt (September 2006)


My first interview with Dr. Wilson was captured on mini-disc recorder in his small hotel room at the Prophets Conference, Palm Springs 2000 A.D. I am in the process of writing out the days I spent with RAW at the Con. and it leads right up to this transcript of Dr. Wilson, who was tired and stoned from a full days activity but still turning my grunts and garbles into wonderful threads within his NET.

I hope to place my three interview-type interactions with RAW, along with some historic and geographical tales into a new book! At least i hope my naive tone can be attributed to smoking Amsterdam Cup winning weed that evening in Bob’s hotel room, provided by Richard Metzger of disinfo – who paid us a fleeting visit. Any ideas on how to expand this into the tribal tales? Please forgive me for not sharing this interview earlier.

I Can’t resist setting the scene a little here: Bob, sits on a small chair next to the bed smoking cigarettes frequently, the wise old Irish giant of counter-culture, right there in front of me! I as smoking like a chminey too, I was very high after smoking weed in a pipe with disinfolk.

Bob was wearing a cream shirt, the one with the hyperbolic pattern running down the front in large coral cream puffs and ridges, and some comfy looking brown slippers. He drank water often, and spoke very slowly to me as I bombarded the poor old man with questions about whatever subjective delusions I might have been carrying around that evening. After all, I was only 24 years young, 5000 miles from home and had approx 40 American Dollars to my name, but I was living out some kind of impossible Dream of unimaginable proportion.

I was sat on the floor of the small room about 4 feet from Bob, the mini-disc lay on the bed, in fact laying there for the duration of Richards visit but I paid the honour of not having it set to record for that fascinating conversation. I was as high as I had ever been before, higher, at the end of a 9 year day, a day on which I lost my job at the conference as Bob’s little helper, due to not getting him to the hall on time for his presentation due to hanging out with Paul Krassner and his wife over Manhattan’s and a crafty joint. I found it difficult to interupt them to hit the road to the show. I had a few notes scrawled in my notebook, sweaty palms and screwy vision, here’s what was said, with a few minor edits and additional hyperlinks.

-Steve Fly

Interview with Robert Anton Wilson.
PALM SPRINGS. 17/12/00. By Steven James Pratt (Fly Agaric 23).

RAW: So your gonna do an interview now?

Fly: Well, a few questions…. erm, UFO’s as fairies, and the UFO as a fairy tale?

RAW: I think Jacques Vallee was the first to suggest that in Passport to Magolia, and a lot of interesting links between UFO encounters and traditional fairy lore, there are also links with appearances of the BVM (Blessed Virgin Mary) and with the delusions of Dr. WilliamMinouse: one of the major researchers upon the Oxford English dictionary and he was confined to Broadmore Asylum for the mentally insane and he believed Irishmen were sneaking into his room and carrying him by Airplane to Cairo and forcing him to do unspeakable sex acts to Arab prostitutes; thats very similar to some of the UFO contact stories. The plane is sort of like a crude UFO, I am sure to the first people who saw it, it was a UFO to them. What the hell is that thing in the sky?

Fly: What about the pancakes? when those UFO’s flew down and left some pancakes?

RAW: Oh, the Simonton cakes, yeah, Joseph Simonton from Wisconsin, i forget the name of the city, well S claimed that a UFO landed in his back yard and they asked him for some water which he gave them and they thanked him and gave him a plate full of pancakes, and he had the pancakes, so the only hallucinatory explanation is that he went into a trance, made the pancakes, forgot that he did it, hallucinated the UFO’s and had a explanation for the pancakes. I find that a bit strange, but i find it even more strange that people would come across God knows how many light years of space to give pancakes to a guy in Wisconsin, it doesn’t make sense no matter which way you look at it, and Allen Hynek was on the Airforce investigation team with Jacques Vallee and they both came to the conclusion that Simonton thought he was telling the truth, he had all the earmarks of sincerity, he was confused like anybody else, all you can say is thats what i think, thats what happened thats what i saw.

Fly: Were they edible?

Raw: Oh yeah, well, they took them back to Wright Paterson Airforce Base and analyzed them there and said they were created by somebody who was very health conscious, they contain wheat germ. (laughs)

Fly: If there was a Mushroom contained within the Fairy Tale, like recent query into Irish Soma by Hakim Bey, how would you see that archetype in other mysteries?

RAW: Well, the fairies are frequently seen on the mushrooms in traditional art and the mushroom they are most frequently seen under is the Psilocybin mushroom, and the word for psilocybin in Gaelic is Pookeen‘, which means little Fairy, little Elf or vegetation spirit; something like that, so there was definitely a link back in ancient times between the psilocybin mushroom and the experiences of fairy people or the gentry as the Irish call them – and of course Terence Mckenna and Gordon Wasson , John Allegro and several others have found evidence of a magic mushroom cult over most of Europe and even up into Russia and Siberia I believe, yeah, the siberians are into Amanita Muscaria.

Fly: Yeah, I read some Puharich stuff recently.

RAW: Yeah, he was one of the first to write about the importance of Amanita in religious history.

Fly: It seemed like a strange filter that came through, as you said about Uri’s book earlier, it’s like a crazy fairground ride.

RAW: Which one, the book by Puharich or the one by Uri? I read the one by Puharich and i have not got around to reading the one by Uri. Yeah, Puharich’s book is harder to believe than just about anything i have ever read on that subject, and though Puharich himself is a competent scientist and has patents on several inventions, but then again William Minor who i mentioned earlier who thought the Irish were forcing him to commit unspeakable sex acts; whatever that meant to the Victorians. He was a leading scholar of his time (RAW Laughs) I don’t know, i don’t mean to imply that Puharich is crazy, i just mean to imply that the human brain cant understand itself. The brain has so many potentials, i mean, is it genetics that gave Beethoven that magnificent musical talent or was it conditioning because his father was a music teacher? he hated his father who was a very brutal father you know, where did Orson Welles get that voice? weather you think that Orson Welles was the greatest actor of the 20th century or the greatest ham, weather you like it or don’t like his style of acting, everybody has to admit he has the most musical voice within acting and can do remarkable things with it, is that work and work and training and training or did he just genetically inherit a voice like that. I don’t know.

Fly: Today is Beethoven’s Birthday.

RAW: Yeah, i lost track of that on my travels. On my email i usually put down who’s birthday it is if i happen to know, but I’m not near my computer at present, thank God! (Raw Chuckles) the only thing that gets me away from the computer is hunger or the growing sense I’m about to get eye strain if i don’t quit for a while.

Fly: Yeah, I am interested in Bates work that Aldous Huxley picked up on and wrote about in “The Art of seeing” the idea that glasses don’t really heal seeing, for your eyes to get better, you have to take off your glasses and exorcise your eyes.

RAW: I’ve heard of Bates but i’ve never tried his system. My wife tried it and it seemed to keep her from wearing glasses for quite a long time but eventually she did need glasses, in her 50’s. But she was first told she needed glasses in her 20’s and she started doing the Bates exercises and she never bumped into anything and she drove a car well, and she read all the time, i don’t know why i haven’t gotten around to them? Oh, i know why because there’s so many fucking things I am interested in i can’t get into all of them so i have to put some on the back burner till i get the time. The trouble with been a generalist is that your always 5 to 20 years behind any subject you ever wrote a book about. Somebody asked me to write a paper on Bell’s theorem, i went searching on the WEB to make sure there was nothing new on Bell’s theorem that refuted everything i had written about it before and all i found is there’s a new group of antiBell people who are still claiming there are defects in the experiments even though the experiments have got increasingly complex and subtle and so on. I think there’s been six confirmations of Bell’s theorem but they’re still arguing, seems they just can’t believe it.

Fly: Saul Paul talks about the ADE Graphs, the seven times seven group and the work of Eddington studied in the 1970’s, like some emerging shape, and he uses the metaphor of the Kublai Khan story about an unbuilt pyramid, recalled by Cooleridge, and, it was like a dream that only came – half – to him, he was awoke up from his dream about something being built in the desert, he parables this half remembered dream to the emerging shapes of ADE groups that are coming through. Its nice to see colors and patterns emerging from science, spirals…

RAW: Yeah.

Fly: I’ve experienced something i call Coltrane Coincidence Control Conspiracy. Coltrane was kinda’ opening portals to other worlds with his horn, described later tracks titles. I think he really did open channels and doors up at that time. There was a big surge from 1965 and his last 2 years on earth. Its interesting to me how you find music like this and then loose weeks and months, listening and getting mixed up in it.

RAW: Somebody said that “when the music changes the walls of the city shake”. Every major change in music has paralleled cultural change.

Are you sure you turned down the thermostat, you didn’t turn it up?

Fly: I think i put it on low, i’ll check again.

Fly: In your book Cosmic Trigger, you wrote about possible drugs that were going to emerge in the year 2000. At least half of these things have come true, like Viagra for example…?

RAW: I don’t know how many of them have become true, but a few of them have, and others look much more plausible now than they did when i wrote that, research is moving along all those lines, there’s a lot of drugs around that supposed to increase intelligence but i haven’t seen any serious scientific tests on them, but a lot of people are interested in that, if we don’t have them already, we’ll have them soon and i forget what else i predicted but well there are two corporations that are building Hotels in space, one in Japan and one in England, and by and large i think i was off by a few years, but i did spot the on coming trends.

Fly: Genesis P. Orridge and his works are something i have not had much contact with, but it seems to have a relation to a kind of TV consciousness, maybe one of the first folks making TV out to be a mega strong force, and should be kind of, avoided, you know, then if you find a tree then sit under that.

RAW: I don’t avoid any new art form no matter how crude it looks originally its worth studying to find out, Im very much a TV fan, especially since the invention of the VCR, i can look at any movie i want just about, without any commercial interruptions. What a marvelous idea.

Fly: Yeah, Graffiti art, there’s a movement in England called the Iconoclast Panzerism, started maybe around 1984, graffiti writers painting with letters and shapes and they started this movement and its now diversified into music too, like the Hip Hop label Big Dada records.

RAW: Yeah, DADA is making a come back in all sorts of forms, there were times i thought the latest American election must have been a DADA plot.

Fly: Have you favorite food that you enjoy? or that you like to cook.

RAW: If i had to pick one it would be Lobster. With shrimp and Crab tied in second place, Oysters in third. I seem to have a thing about shell fish, i don’t know why.

Fly: Yeah, Terence put forward some ideas about the Octopus, it can communicate through changing its texture and its color, which might be another kind of evolutionary move?

RAW: Octopi are one of the many subjects i don’t know much about.

Fly: Do you mind if i smoke a cigarette?

RAW: No, as a matter of fact i think I’ll do the same.

FLY: I visited San Francisco for 2 months. And i was thinking generally about how India and Asia and Africa seem to meet there through internet.

RAW: Oh, yeah, i subscribe to a list serve called mobilize globally which keeps you informed about every-kind of protest going on allover the world. I think thats the best thing i found on internet so far. Its nice to know your not alone. (Laughs….) That why i was so happy that nobody got 52% of the vote, gee, i’m part of the majority for the first time in my life.

FLY: Yeah imagine, i was in Palm Springs for one day, i put the Television on, and it was the night that they made the election news broadcast, i sat there, my first day in America, watching the Ivory Tower. (Raw laughs) That was one of the images that i remember.

RAW: Yeah after the first half hour they were so confused that i got the impression that there was a possibility that they allowed the Florida supreme court to set up another count but it turns out the conditions under which they set it up, the Florida supreme court couldn’t do it. Bwoy, what a bunch of sneaky bastards. (Laughs)

The funny thing is, there was a time when the supreme court was my favorite branch of the Government, thats when they still had Justice Black and Justice Brenan, and Justice Douglas and a few others like that.

Fly: Yeah, i think recently, Blueprints have recently been released for building Tesla’s Earthquake machine, in paperback.

RAW: How big an earthquake does it make?

Fly: I dunno, i dunno if it works (RAW Laughs)

RAW: I am wondering how big the anti Inuguration protest is going to be in Washington, and with an Earthquake machine i thought gee, if they get their hands on that! (RAW LAUGHS)

Fly: I read “Prodigal Genius” and it interested me that the moment he first saw the machines in his Mind, he was reading Goethe, i think he was in some square?

RAW: Yeah, an unusual brain, he could not only see a machine before it was built but he could know the exact dimensions it had to be. The only thing comparable to that is those Chess masters who play 40 games blindfolded and win 43 of them. (Laughs)

Fly: I see a link between the 11th of the Sephiroth from the tree of life and the 11 dimensions of Super String theory, um, maybe thats a new model for vibrational information?

RAW: But there are 10 sephiroth. Oh, your including Da’at, and that’s not a real sephiroth, that’s a false sephiroth.

Fly: is that like the Pookah?

Raw: Yeah, i guess so yeah, but stay away from that one. (huh em)

Fly: My best expression for this is through playing drums and music. i recently did a recording project called “Super-string theory”, and we hope to use the strings of the violins and the other instruments with to try and teach the idea of science through music. A direct link…

RAW: I am tired, yeah, I’m tired.


–Steven James Pratt (fly agaric 23)

Recorded on SONY mini-disc. approx 8-10.00 P.M. 17th December 2000. Palm Springs. Prophets Conference

SPS is for Saul Paul Sirag (Interview with fly agaric23)

When I recorded this interiew in 2000 A.D. on minidisc recorder I had no way to transcribe and upload the results, and there was no wikipedia to enhance the wisdom of Saul. Big thanks to Jack Sarfatti, please spend a moment at his new website:

FLY interviews Saul Paul Sirag:

FLY: Robert Anton Wilson?

SAUL: Yeah, i first introduced him to Jack,

SAUL: Yeah, well he learned about this Bell’s theorem stuff from Jack and me, i introduced Jack to Wilson, that was when he was living in Berkeley.

FLY: Oh, the trick top hat

SAUL: what?

SAUL: The trick top hat’, oh, yeah, the trick top hat, yeah that’s the next one i think, and the third one is called ‘homing pigeons’, trick top hat is the one that has references to both Jack and Me as coming up with futuristic kind of physics that changes things drastically and so on.

FLY: That’s interesting as John Lilly just recently spoke about the…erm…form of law

SAUL: Laws of form?

FLY: yeah, and the trick top hat relates to that somehow?

SAUL: I’m very interested in the Laws of form also, yeah he talks about it in both his fiction and he has written a lot of non-fiction too of course, and maybe more none-fiction than fiction actually, although, you know he’s one of these people that mixes the two together a lot, kind of like Borges’ the Argentinean writer, well, B draws a fine line between lit. criticism that is not fiction and the fiction that he’s criticizing, B’s criticism is so speculative and interesting that it reads almost as fiction, you know.

FLY: I like the idea of exploring our unreality’s. At the back of the book “Secret Chamber by Robert Bauval” there’s an appendix in which the author mentions Wilhelm Reich and something he calls Cosmic ambience. Terence Mckenna is quoted at length, talk of probing into unreality’s, but now were realizing that’s our reality too.

SAUL: One of the most important pieces of criticism that’s really fascinating, and it’s about that famous British poet – William Taylor Coleridge – and you see what’s interesting about that poem is that Coleridge calls it a – fragment of a poem – the reason he calls it a fragment is that he actually dreamt’ the whole poem, he woke up and just started writing it down, but he got the first part of it written down, and a visiter came and visited, and he forgot the rest of it, so he calls it a fragment of a poem anyway, its a beautiful poem all by itself, but here’s the weird thing that Borges points out – there really was a Khan who was a builder – and he was the grandson of Genghis Khan; who was just a conquerer, but Kubilai Kahn was a builder. What Coleridge never knew is that Kubilai Kahn really did order a pleasure dome to be built, and that was enough, but what wasn’t known in Cooleridge’s time is that it itself was an incomplete building, and that was discovered by archeologists after Cooleridge’s time, eh, so what Borges says is there’s a kind of archetype, a vast archetype thats trying to get in through our reality, the first time its comes in the form of a building Kubilai Kahn wants to build, and for some reason its not completed, and the second time it takes the form of a poem about Kubilai Kahn’s building, and that’s incomplete too, because of this guy who walks in and disturbs his memory of the dream. So then Borges speculates that it will try to come in a third time, and he thinks that the form will be different, in some way. My feeling about that is that the form, having my own prejudices about forms, is that the form is what Mathematicians have discovered, a beautiful set of structures, they call it the Coxeter graphs, named after the canadian H. S. M. Coxeter, who’s still alive in his 90’s still doing math very accurately, and he invented these graphs in the 1930’s to classify hyper-dimensional crystal structures, well that already sounds like Kubilai Kahn and Coleridge – and then in the 40’s totally independent of Coxeter’mathematicians work because it was in a totally different part of mathematics, a Russian mathematician named Dinken, invented the same set of graphs to classify very different kind mathematical objects, something called; lie algebras and lie groups. Then in the 60’s a french mathematician called Rene’ Thom invented a whole new field of mathematics called Catastrophe theory, which deals with dynamic systems that can undergo drastic changes due to a very small change in the parameters that they are dependent on, thus the word catastrophe, but catastrophe is to be taken in a neutral sense, that is to say a lot of catastrophes are good.

In fact what RT was trying to model was the changes that living systems go through, he wanted a mathematics to deal with living systems, especially development and growth and so on; which is very difficult to deal with mathematically.

Well then a Russian mathematician named V.I Arnold looked at Rene Thom’s work and said Thom just delt’ with a lower, small set, 7 of them in turned out, of catastrophe structures, but actually there is an infinite series and they are classified by these same graphs, so then of course the obvious idea that Arnold had was that the must be a whole bunch of other mathematical objects that can be brought into this classification scheme and so he set that up basically as a program for his students and himself to work on over the years and a lot of other mathematicians have been involved in this. And it has the feel of an archeological dig like their digging up this vast…. see because, Here’s why, its because all these mathematical objects are related to each other by way of these graphs, the graphs form a kind of bridge between different types of mathematical objects, that’s a very powerful thing to be able to do in mathematics because what’s very difficult to see with one type of math object and if you have a bridge between the two and you can switch back and forth and get a much broader and much more accurate feel for what’s going on.

And so the idea now is that the mathematicians are wondering what the vast underlying object is that the whole set of graphs ultimately refers to and that object is this archeological structure in some sense, and its being dug up, its not a ruin its not something that’s incomplete because its mathematical, its – gotta’ be whole – so to speak. And a very interesting thing from the point of view of science is that all the math objects that have been brought into the classification scheme with these Coxeter graphs are of great use and interest in physics. In fact especially in unified field theory type physics, that’s cutting edge now, like string theory, uses all these kinds of objects usually without the physicist realizing that they’re grabbing objects that are related to each other by way of these graphs, because for the most part they don’t know about the history of these discoveries and that it’s kind of ongoing, sort of at the cutting edge of mathematics, a kind of unification in mathematics concurrently with a unification of the forces of physics, and these two programs are intimately interrelated, and so what i think is that this vast underlying object that underlies all these graphs, is simply reality – reality in all its forms – you know.

A physicist is going to want to call it physics, because they want to bring everything into the physics program, someone else might want to call it something else, like life or something , it has the feeling of a living breathing creature, its a bit like Phil Dick’s idea of VALIS: Vast Active Living Intelligence System, and yeah, ironically he claimed that the definition is in some Soviet encyclopedia of some distant year, and of course the soviet Union is long gone, but still the idea of VALIS is still valid i feel.

FLY: valid VALIS!

SAUL: Laughs.

FLY: I’m also interested in the parable between the yang-mills field theory and the work of the mathematician Ramanujan.

SAUL: Yeah, oh yeah, see that’s related to this ADE stuff too. It all is. Yang-mills fields was first a generalization of the electromagnetic field, the em field is mathematisized in a sense, by a simple group which is a circle called U1, a unitary one group, and its a communicative group, in other words the way in which you rotate a circle does not matter, 30 degrees plus 60 degrees equals 60 plus 30 degrees, so it doesn’t matter, and that;s a communicative group, and in the language we use today we say thats the gauge group of electromagnetism.

But what Yang and Mills did back in the 1950’s, 54 i think was the year, generalized the group into a bigger group that deals with rotations ultimately rot’ in a 3d space, and thats the gauge group; they were trying to model the strong force, but it turned out to be the right group for the weak force, then in the 60′ there was the unification of the st and weak force by simply putting U1 and SU2 together as a bigger gauge group, work by Weinberg, Salem and Glashow, and this had certain experimental implications, like the existence of certain particles that were then found which verify the theory, but in fact there are still parts of the theory we are still trying to verify, like the Higgs particle, which hasn’t been found yet, and thats part of the theory, and we think that eventually it will be found, but generally these gauge groups are groups that are classified by the ADE groups, now SU actually is an ADE classification, simply the very first rung on the ladder so to speak, in order to bring in the other forces like the strong for force they have to go to a larger gauge group, put all 3 forces together, weak the strong and the electromagnetic force, they had to go to SU5, which is a 3 dim group, that work was done in 74 i guess, by Glashow and Geogee, the same Glashow that did the work on electro-weak theory.

But then in order to bring in gravity which is a lot harder to do because gravity entails Einstein’s theory of general relativity which is so different from Quantum mechanics, these other forces are modelled by way of the rules of general relativity, which are very different, almost opposite from the rules of Quantum Mechanics, so it’s very hard to put these theories together; to assume sub theories, or some bigger theories. But thats been done now with superstring theory. Yeah, since 1984 superstring theory has been proven to be a viable consistent quantum gravity theory, and thats what started a sort of bandwagon effect in physics and when lots of young physicists got interested in studying strings.

But the gauge groups involves in string theory are huge groups, like E8 x E8. There are 3 groups, which is interesting, an infinite A’s, An Infinite D’s and then only 3 E’s, E6 E7 and E8, the dimensionality is huge. E6, is a 78 dimensional group, E7 is a 133 dimensional group and E8 is a 240 dimensional group, and they use 2 copies of it. They have an E8 x E8 version of superstring theory, they have 496 dimensional group actually, and the E8 x E8 gives you 16 very special dimensions which they use to interpolate between the 26 dimensional superstring theory and the 10 dimensional theory in a very clever way. And all this is an out-growth of what you mentioned – the yang-mills theory of 1954 – it’s an out-growth of other developments too, but that was a key development in 1954 and i just wanted to plug that in and see how that fits into the ADE scheme itself, you see?

FLY: I see a parallel between the superstrings and the strings on an instrument

SAUL: Yeah, well it is like strings on an instrument in this sense, that the harmonics, what we call vibrational states, quantized vibrational States are exactly harmonics, auk, and string harmonics are what we used to call particle states, OK, that’s how string theory corresponds to particles, and the way the correspondence works is by way of the gauge groups that are classified by these ADE graphs so the ultimate tool is simply these graphs, which go way back into the 30’s to Coxeter’s work, not knowing the way these things were be used in the future but he really started something there and Dinken in Russia you know, the same graphs, classifying “Lie algebras which are the algebras of the gauge groups as we use them in physics now and he had no idea that development was going to happen, he was a pure mathematician not a physicist, even physicists in the 40’s should not foresee that development.

And you mentioned RAM earlier, and some of the more esoteric discoveries of RAM are actually very fundamental parts of super string theory and special membrane theory, and so people thought of RAM’s work as not only been rather fantastic of course, its amazing he came up with those identities, allot of his work involved saying “this is equal to that, and the two things are so deferent that, you know, you might never in a thousand years think that was true, they’re still working on proving RAM’s ideas, and a lot of people are working on that now in mathematics. But a lot of his ideas are being brought into physics by Super-string theory funnily enough.

FLY: One of the things i found really interesting in the work of Buckminster Fuller was the isotropic vector, (Vector equilibrium you mean?) yeah… i’m looking for relationships between the superstrings and Bucky’s work…

SAUL: The vector equalibrium is an object that has 12 vertices, ok, and actually that object, is one of these crystallographic objects, in fact that crystallographic object exists exactly in what i call the reflection space, or you could call it a crystallographic space of the SU(4) group. OK, and in fact of course; those 12 vertices actually correspond to what we call; eigen values of the S4 group which correspond to what we call the gauge particles, or the force particles. You see; there’s two types groups of particles in quantum theory these force particles and matter particles.

One of the fundamental ideas in particle theory is that matter particles interact by exchanging force particles, and mathematically the way that works is that in these gauge group structures you have two different types of crystallographic structure, you have the matter c.s and the force c.s, and in the case of SU(4) the matter crystallographic structures are like tetrathedra, you have two tetrahedra making a cube and those exactly correspond to the eigen values of the quarks and anti-quarks, and the electrons and the neutrinos. OK. So those are all matter particles, but then there are actually 15 force particles involved because SU4 is a 15 dimensional group but 3 of the force particles have zero eigen values, and 12 of them have none zero eigen values and those eigen values exactly correspond to the vertices of what Bucky fuller calls the ‘vector equilibrium’. So that object is being used but in a totally different way to what he thought of it.

Fly Agaric: yeah.

Interview with Saul Paul Sirag, in North Beach, San Francisco: 27/05/2000. Recorded and transcribed by Steven “Fly Agaric 23” Pratt.


“In 1936 Coxeter moved to the University of Toronto, becoming a professor in 1948. He was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Canada in 1948 and a Fellow of the Royal Society in 1950. He met Maurits Escher and his work on geometric figures helped inspire some of Escher’s works, particularly the Circle Limit series based on hyperbolic tessellations. He also inspired some of the innovations of Buckminster Fuller. –

A Fuller explanation: the synergetic geometry of R. Buckminster Fuller
By Amy C. Edmondson

Toward a science of consciousness: the first Tucson discussions and debates
By Stuart R. Hameroff, Alfred W. Kaszniak, Alwyn Scott

Ramanujan: essays and surveys
By Bruce C. Berndt, Robert Alexander Rankin

The Trouble with Physics: The Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science …
By Lee Smolin

Strings, conformal fields, and M-theory
By Michio Kaku

The search for a unifying theory was interrupted by the discovery of the strong and weak nuclear forces, which could not be subsumed into either gravity or electromagnetism. A further hurdle was the acceptance that quantum mechanics had to be incorporated from the start, rather than emerging as a consequence of a deterministic unified theory, as Einstein had hoped. Gravity and electromagnetism could always peacefully coexist as entries in a list of Newtonian forces, but for many years it seemed that gravity could not even be incorporated into the quantum framework, let alone unified with the other fundamental forces. For this reason, work on unification for much of the twentieth century, focused on understanding the three “quantum” forces: electromagnetism and the weak and strong forces. The first two were unified in 1967–68 by Sheldon Glashow, Steven Weinberg, and Abdus Salam as the “electroweak” force.[7] However, while the strong and electroweak forces peacefully coexist in the Standard Model of particle physics, they remain distinct. Several Grand Unified Theories (GUTs) have been proposed to unify them. Although the simplest GUTs have been experimentally ruled out, the general idea, especially when linked with supersymmetry, remains strongly favored by the theoretical physics community

In current mainstream physics, a Theory of Everything would unify all the fundamental interactions of nature, which are usually considered to be four in number: gravity, the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, and the electromagnetic force. Because the weak force can transform elementary particles from one kind into another, the TOE should yield a deep understanding of the various different kinds of particles as well as the different forces. The expected pattern of theories is:

Theory of Everything


Electronuclear force (GUT)

Strong force

Electroweak force
SU(2) x U(1)

Weak force


Electric force

Magnetic force

In addition to the forces listed here, modern cosmology might require an inflationary force, dark energy, and also dark matter composed of fundamental particles outside the scheme of the standard model. The existence of these has not been proven and there are alternative theories such as modified Newtonian dynamics.

IE is for Interview by Email: They shall come to know Go(o)d

Every yin needs a yang. Every Hodge
needs a Podge. We should be united.–Illuminatus Trilogy! Page 423!

Fly: Could you explain a little bit about your holographic prose?

RAW: No. I’m struggling to write a whole book about
that right now and can’t imagine how to
condense it. Besides, it’s the hardest
part of my work to translate…
I’ll give you two related samples from the Illuminatus and see what you
can make of them: “They shall come to gno gods.”
“They shall come to gnu godz.”

email from–Tue, 8 Jan 2002, 11:10:54-0800.

I have slept on this small riddle Bob spun for me, or i shd/ say i have not communicated my thoughts very much, and in retrospect i think it helps us in our continued investigative and independently minded research into RAW and his communications. So here i will expand a little on my research into these related samples.

“SIMON MAGUS. You will come to know gods.”–Illuminatus Trilogy, Page 183.

And then a little further down the page we find:

“The note said:
“Machen’s dols = Lovecraft’s dholes?”

VECTORS. You will come to no gods.”

Near the end of the bugguiness of Finnegans Wake (page 615) we find the line

“Mucksrats which bring up about uhrweckers they will come to
know good.”

I suspect Bob might of sailed across this line on one or two of his many readings of Finnegans Wake. And he put it into I.T! ?

While researching this small puzzle that Bob left for me to unravel, i discovered something else that grabbed me like T-Rex or King Kong, out of my seat. Typical of RAW in many ways, or typical of the ever expanding infinite-flux of being? On Page 183 of Illuminatus, the page on which we find Simon Magus saying: You will come to know gods, also features a dialogue about Amanita Muscaria (fly agaric) in the context of the investigation of Professor J. N. Marsh, who appears to have gone missing, in the novel?

Maybe Bob was actually answering the question directly without being consciously aware that his example from Illuminatus! was right next to a passage describing fly agaric intoxication and some of its background history. (Amanita Muscaria appears as the 24th entry of the INDEX to Cosmic Trigger, and this is where i first came across it in the context of RAW. I had however read a little of Terence Mckenna around about the same time who also writes of Amanita in his book “Food of the Goods”. But the point here is that i was still unaware of Amanita and its use and ab-use within Illuminatus Trilogy! (!). Up until re-reading the book in the class Illuminatus! with Bob himself.)

As this communication with Bob was facilitated by email, he might have noticed fly, my email address, and then so maybe he did choose the line from Simon Magus especially for fly, as an answer to my question about Hologramic Prose?

With a fully searchable PDF version of Illuminatus Trilogy! you can find thousands of Joycean like–coincidances of contraries–but often on a different level of magnification to Joyce’s Finnegans Wake and its maximal condensation. Hodge-Podge seems to have Viconian, Joycean, Zen-Koan like qualities tied-up-with-it.

During lunch (which always ended with golden apfel-strudel), Galley and Eichmann danced for her,
a complex ballet which Hagbard called “Hodge-Podge”; as many times as she saw this, she never
was able to determine how they changed costumes at the climax, in which Hodge became Podge and
Podge became Hodge. –Page 412.

And just like the DANCE of Hodge-Podge described, the Illuminatus Trilogy itself comes to a climax with the Appendix and its greater explanation and exploration of Hagbard’s Hodge-Podge principle in a more Geo-political, Historical, cybernetic language.

In this chaotic period, the Hodge and the Podge are in dynamic balance. There is no stasis: The
balance is always shifting and homeostatic, in the manner of the ideal “self-organizing system” of
General Systems Theory or Cybernetics. The Illuminati, and all authoritarian types in general, dislike
such ages so much that they try to prevent any records of their existence from reaching the general
public. Pre-Chou China was one such period, and its history (except for some fragments in Taoist
lore) is largely lost; we do know, however, that the I Ching was reorganized when the Chou Dynasty
introduced patriarchal authoritarianism to China. –434.

I find a new beauty in the fact that Illuminatus Trilogy! combines these literary principles, in action (Captured by Theartre) and also with a CODEX, or appendix that begins to divulge the methods by which the author created the “Action” of the novel itself, and also being bound into the novel itself in a self-referncing or “hologramic Prose” technique; unique to Uncle Bob and his magikal communications.

I have started a piece called the Unkle Bob principle”which uses a term i read by Hugh Kenner in his book Joyce’s Voices to describe James Joyce’s technique of using a general principle, that i understand to mean: The voice of the narrator need NOT always be the narrator him or her-self. Kenner’s Uncle Charles Principle honors the character called uncle Charles who sits in his outhouse reading and doing his bog business, and maybe also narrating parts of Ulysses?

Anyhow, i’ll be putting these bits of research together and then applying them to I.T! Plus adding some source’s and sauces.

–DJ Fly Agaric 23

T is for Timewave 2012: WavetimE

Paul Krassner very kindly agreed to republishing, in cyberspace, his interview with Terence Mckenna in the lastest edition of Maybelogic Quarterly. Please follow the link for the entire interview combined with audio provided by DJ fly agaric 23.

“The rise of the web has been a great boost to my fantasies along these lines, because now i can see with the Web from here to the eschaton. Apparently, it’s a technology for dissolving space, time, personally and just releasing everybody into a data stream, something like the imagination. Then that’s why the ultimate technological fantasy along this line of thought is what is conventionally called a time machine.

There’s an interesting aspect to the time machine. The wave describes the ebb and flow of novelty in time, but then you reach a point where it’s so novel that it fails beyond that point. Well, a time-traveling technology would cause such a system to fail, because it’s a description of the unfolding seriality of linear events, which a time machine would disrupt.

So it may be that it isn’t explosion of the sun, or the coming of the aliens, or the descent of the second person of the Trinity, it’s simply that a technology is put into place that destroys linear time and, from thence forward, when you give your address you have to say not only where but when. There are some problems with this.

And then here is a slightly more interesting and woo-woo scenario. The thing that’s called the grandfather paradox – somebody pointed out it’s not called the father paradox because apparently you want to avoid an Oedipal situation – and it’s simply the following objection: if you could travel into the past, you could kill your grandfather. If you killed your grandfather, you wouldn’t exist. Therefore, you couldn’t travel into the past. Therefore, time travel is impossible.

One idea i have for an end of history scenario: Time travel becomes more and more discussible, finally there are laboratories working on it, finally there is a prototype machine, finally it’s possible to conceive of a test; and so on the morning of December 12, 2012, at the world Temporal Institute headquarters in the Amazon Basin, by a worldwide, high definition, three-dimensional hook up, the entire world tunes in to see the first flight into time. And the lady temponaut comes to the microphone and makes a few brief statements, hands are shaken, the champagne bottle is smashed, she climbs into her time-machine, pushes the button and disappears into the far flung reaches of the future. Now, the interesting question is, what happens next? And i have already established for myself that you can travel backwards into the past, but you can’t travel further into the past than the invention of the first time machine, for the simple reason that there are no time machines before that, and if you were to take one where there are none, you get another paradox.

So what happens when the lady temponaut slips into the future? Well, i think what would happen a millisecond later is tens of thousands of time machines would arrive from all points in the future, having come back through time, of course, to witness the first flight into time. Exactly as if you could fly your beachcraft back to Kitty hawk, North Carolina, to that windy morning when the Wright brothers rolled their flyer out and fueled ‘er up. And that’s as far as the road goes. That’s the end of the time road.

But the grandfather paradox persists. One of those time travelers from 5,000 years in the future, on their way back to the first time-travel incident, could stop and kill his grandfather, and then we have this whole problem again. So i thought about this for a long time, and i think i’ve found my way around it. But, as usual, at the cost of further weirdness.

Here’s what would really happen if we invented a time machine of that sort. The lady temponaut pushes the button, and instead of all time machines appearing instantly in the next moment, in order to preserve the system from that paradox, what will happen is, the rest of history of the universe will occur instantly. And so that’s it. I call it the God whistle.

This is because you thought you were building a time machine, and in a sense you were, but the time machine isn’t what you thought it was. It caused the rest of time to happen instantaneously, and so the furthest out developments of life, matter, and technology in the universe can right up against you a millisecond after you break that barrier, and in fact you discover that traveling time is not traveling time, it’s a doorway into eternity, which is all of time, and that’s why it becomes more like a hyperspatial deal than a simple linear time-travel thing.

There’s been a parallel development which has caused me to be more confident. We’re now beginning to build this parallel world called the Wolrd Wide Web. And you can bet that long before we reach 2012, the major religions of the world will build virtual realities of their eschatological scenarios. There will be the Islamic paradise, the Christian millenium, the Buddhist shunyata – these will be channels that you tune into to see if you like it and want to join, so in a sense guaranteeing we will have a virtual singularity.

It’s all very well to try to understand the end point, but recall that where we are relative to the end point is in resonance with the year 950 AD. We’re like the people in 950 AD trying to understand the web, the hydrogen bomb and the catscanner. How can we? My God, we don’t even have calculus yet. Newton hasn’t been born yet, let alone Einstein. I mean we’re running around – essentially we’re primitives, is what i’m saying. We don’t have tools yet to conceive of the object of 2012. We must build those tools between now and then. And good places to start are with the web, psychedelic drugs, whatever is the most cutting edge and most far out.

Acrillic Figa